With every post I read on here it seems more and more people are being offended by masculinity. And for the life of me I don’t understand. What’s wrong with wanting to compete? Whats wrong with being satisfied after beating down a rival and rubbing his face in the mud? What’s wrong with sexual conquest? My whole life I have looked up to the manliest of men, James Bond, Hugh Hefner, Tom Brady and many others like them. They see what they want and they go out and get it. I feel like women should be treated with respect and equality don’t get me wrong, but many of the posts on here see men and women not only being seen as equal but being seen as the exact same.
Men and women should be treated equally.They should be paid the same wage for doing the same amount of work of course but should they be treated the same in every aspect of day to day life? No, there are fundamental differences between men and women both physically and mentally and many people now days are for some reason choosing to ignore that. There is nothing wrong with a woman taking time of her job to raise a child as a matter of fact if you look to nature it is the female of the species that usually care for the young. Men are expected to make the first move on a woman if they want to find a mate and sometimes it can be seen as catcalling. Either way it should be done as respectfully as possible sure but I don’t see anything wrong with it if it is done respectfully. There is beauty in femininity just as there is in masculinity.
Being a masculine male I also have manners. I have never hit a woman, I hold doors open for them, and I help them lift heavy things. What’s the harm in it? My body is made physically stronger so why not help out the gentler sex if I can? But that being said i should not be pressured into being ashamed of having sex with multiple women. I should not be ashamed of competing. I should not be ashamed of asserting my dominance over other men. It’s something basic and primitive rooted in my brain and I can’t help but to enjoy it. I don’t want to apologize for my love of large breasts I’m sorry I can’t help it.
What I’m really trying to say is men and women are wired differently and maybe you can try to ignore that but I’m just stating the obvious truth that so many try to ignore.
Millennials Writing for Social Change 
Arguably, a lot of the wiring boys and girls comes from cultural stereotypes that enforce gender roles on kids at an early age.
However I think the main issue is that women, and men, are forced upon their gender stereotypes. Yes, if a woman wants to pursue motherhood and raise a child then she absolutely has the ability to do so and will take off time from her career- but you should not expect a woman to do it specifically because she has a vagina.
Same goes with men, while you choose to compete there are other men who are not into that whatsoever, and they are considered as lesser men in society for not wanting to compete or be aggressive or play sports.
The issue isn’t with traditional masculine or feminine qualities, because there are people who loves those qualities about themselves or even love adopting bits of both, the problem is when someone forces those qualities on another person specifically because they are of said gender.
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The wiring doesn’t come from gender stereotypes it comes from chemicals produced in the human body, mainly testosterone and estrogen.
And if you chose not to compete, not to try to win, then well there are a couple of words for that. And if you dont want to do masculine things then cool, good for you, but you therefor cannot consider yourself manly and lose respect from people who do consider themselves manly the same way someone who chooses to not focus on academics would lose the respect of people who consider themselves scholars. Nobody should force anyone to do anything they don’t want to do nobody should be prejudiced against someone for what the way they act. But is it so wrong to assume that a woman has certain advantage over men in taking care of children? Is it wrong to assume a male will grow up to be stronger than a female? Shouldn’t the male assume the role of defender of the family because he is most likely better suited?
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So correct me if I’m wrong but you’re stating that, because a guy is not competitive, he is less of a man.
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Well lets just put it this way. You cannot win if you cannot compete right? And if you can’t win then by definition yo must be…
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I’m just going to make a few points of disagreement:
– There is no “assault on masculinity.” That’s an over dramatic attempt to shift the conversation on gender inequality. Many prominent feminists (if you need an example, see author bell hooks whose written a lot about masculinity) have said that masculinity and patriarchy should not be conflated, and the former should be celebrated.
– I think in general you’re kind of missing the point on gender roles. I don’t know the points to which you’re referring, but what feminists or people concerned with gender inequality often take issue with is a reliance on gender to understand, explain, or enforce certain behaviors. Brennakat did a good job of disputing this so I don’t think I need to say much; but it’s far from a controversial point to say that people shouldn’t be reduced to their genitals.
– On that, you’ve simplified gender to people’s genitals. Gender’s more complex than that — in a lot of ways. I don’t think you’ve invested much time in learning about the subject so I don’t really feel like elaborating any further. I’d rather just recommend that you look into the subject a bit more yourself.
– “Men are expected to make the first move on a woman if they want to find a mate and sometimes it can be seen as catcalling.” Nah. Dude, if someone is telling you you’re catcalling, bothering, or harassing them, you probably are. When it comes to someone being harassed, the person being harassed should get to have the authority. This is a subject on which we as men can learn a lot from women.
I hope you’re willing to rethink your positions here.
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First of all, You can determine a lot about someone by what kind of genitals they have. I don’t know how this can even be disputed. There are core differences between men and women both physically and mentally.
Second of all, Men in human society, and males of species in the animal kingdom are responsible for making the first move more often than not. The difference between a “catcall” and a pick up line differ from girl to girl. Sure constantly hitting on a girl when the feelings are obviously not returned is harassment but how would anyone know without making the first move? Men should always be respectful towards women of course but i dont see how a “hey whats cookin good lookin” and flashing a smile at a girl you truly find attractive can be so harmful? I mean what the hell is a guy supposed to do?
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Catcalling? The problem is context. Nobody wants to be called out in public. If you were in class with the lady, that’s a good opportunity to talk to her. If you’re both in the student union, maybe go up to her and ask how her day is. No “Yo gurl you look better if you smile.” The only answer to that is “And you would look better with your head shoved up your ass.”
Other comments I wanted to make: I don’t know where you get your ideas of masculinity. Being an asshole (asserting your dominance over another man, or anything that could be described as ‘sexual conquest’) is not masculine, it’s being an asshole. There’s nothing wrong with being competitive and, hell, it’s probably pretty masculine. But being a sore winner? Asshole. Being a humble winner and gracious loser: masculine. Second, sleep with whoever you want as long as its consensual. NEVER EVER EVER think you’re ‘conquering’ someone. People aren’t territories in the Empire of your sex life.
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First of all, i would never say “yo gurl you should smile.” just as i would never walk up to a random girl and ask her a silly question like ” how is your day going”. A response like yours just shows me how little you know about hitting on women. You think that every guy that gives a girl a compliment is catcalling. Contrary to the popular belief on here, some girls actually do like getting compliments. And to your second point, asserting dominance over others is a natural way to establish yourself as higher in the pecking order. It always seems to me that the people who hate competition and trash talking are the ones who cant compete. Of course the other wolves are going to be jealous of the dominant one why wouldn’t they be. Do you think the dominant wolf cares? probably not. Do you think Michael Jordan probably one of the biggest athletes in the history of sports cares how big of an asshole he is? I highly doubt it. All I’m trying to say is that men shouldn’t be ashamed of the characteristics that come along with being pumped full of testosterone. We shouldn’t be called assholes for wanting to win, for celebrating our victory, for pursuing multiple partners. It’s natural for a lot of us.
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I think that at an age where people are just becoming involved in the dating scene, this idea of catcalling and the conqueror mindset is more common and acceptable. A lot of the arguments I’ve seen remind me of a young teenager struggling to claim some masculinity and figure out how people should interact.
At some point growing up should happen, and the transition to adulthood should result in men being able to be men without telling other people about the joys and demands of manhood. Rubbing someone’s face in the mud after beating them down is the action of a boy who is insecure and needs to have a stranglehold on some feeling of victory, it also perfectly describes what we collectively call a “sore loser”. Some men walk around with this idea that they’re Conan The Barbarian, when in reality their greatest victory was a kickball game and their daily struggles involve typing on a keyboard and fighting through traffic.
Personally, when I was 13 my friends and I played the “pick up line” game – we stopped when we turned 14. That was pretty much my only experience with catcalling, and I stopped because it felt weird and wrong. The idea that guys have to make the first move is ridiculous. I’ve made the first move a small handful of times in my life, I usually let the other person initiate romantic contact and then match their escalation. If guys really HAD to make the first move, then this wouldn’t have been a viable tactic in my years of dating. Most of these issues and this “Assault on Masculinity” are made up.
No one has asked anyone to apologize for what they physically prefer in a sexual relationship, but it is a strange thing to exclaim your pride for having a preference in the size of a body part. That’s simply something that can be kept to yourself, or between you and whoever has the desire to become involved with you.
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While I do agree with Jared in that there is no assault on masculinity happening, I can see how you feel that way. The issue that people take with the gender binary is toxic masculinity. Masculinity that enforces that men should be manly and women should be feminine. Masculinity that is sexist and violent. This is the masculinity that is outlined here. There are very few things innate about gender performance. It is mostly cultural. The idea you have of masculinity is one that has been taught to you, not something primitive. On that note, I find it terrifying that you keep linking human men and males animals. Human males are not required to assert their dominance in any shape or form. We are not primitive animals. Humans are categorically animals but we are very different from other animals in terms of cognitive ability. We have the ability to make logical choices. The human thought process is much more intricate than is found in animals. As we have the ability for complex thought, whatever link in performative behavior between us and animals has to be taken with a grain of salt. Don’t excuse away bad behavior because animals do it. Also, in the animal kingdom, more often than not the sex with the lesser numerical amount is often the one who pursues the other to mate. There are species where the female is the pursuer, such as female angler fish who are much larger and more terrifying than males and mates by fusing with the male until only the useful part of him remains, his testicles. As a human, there is nothing that makes men responsible for making the first move, it is society that has told us that that is the way it is supposed to be. This is a learned behavior.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being competitive. It is a problem to be aggressively competitive. To answer your question, “whats wrong with being satisfied after beating down a rival and rubbing his face in the mud?”, a lot. It is this kind of violent competitiveness that makes hyper-masculinity so toxic to society because that kind of violence affects everything else. There is nothing innate in men being “manly”. “Manly” is completely subjective and changing depending on the culture. It means whatever the hell people want it to mean. However, considering the fact the most of world is run by patriarchal societies, there is often small variations of what “manly” means. The reason so many people have an issue with this is because this view helps no one. It gives men unnecessary standards to live up to and sets women up as the less dominant sex. I’m going to be frank and advise that you never call women “the gentler sex” again. It is demeaning and sexist because the social differences between men and women have been created by men to raise themselves up. It is called the patriarchy and many people are trying to tear it down because of the amount of people it excludes. Men are no better than women. Men who are more effeminate are still men.
On that note, you should know that there is very little you can tell from the genitals someone has because gender is performative. Saying that the genitals of anyone tells you that much about that person completely excludes transgender and gender neutral people, and is therefore transphobic.
To answer another question you asked, there is everything wrong with sexual conquest. The term “sexual conquest” is very violent and a result of rape culture. You should NEVER see having sex with anyone as a conquest. Women are not here for men to have sex with. Women are not even here for men to flirt with. Women do not exist to be constantly pursued for “mating” (which is a strange term that keeps being used here because it is becoming very animalistic). In addition, as a man, you are not shamed for having sex with multiple women. It is expected and often encouraged that men have sex with multiple women. Men are never slut shamed and if you are, it is not to the extent that women are. And speaking about sexuality, there is nothing innately manly or masculine in liking large breasts. There are plenty of women who love large breasts. There are plenty of gender-neutral people who love large breasts. All your love of large breasts is an indicator of is that you are a straight man. That is it. There is nothing manly about liking breasts. That statement excludes gay men and is homophobic because a man can not like breasts and still be a man.
In your last comment, you mentioned Michael Jordan not caring about being an asshole in his competitiveness. This is totally fine because while he is playing a sport. Again, there is nothing wrong with being competitive. There is an issue when people are aggressive and competitive in everyday life when it is not warranted. There is a time and a place.
To answer a few more questions you posed:
But is it so wrong to assume that a woman has certain advantage over men in taking care of children?- Yes.
Is it wrong to assume a male will grow up to be stronger than a female?- Yes.
Shouldn’t the male assume the role of defender of the family because he is most likely better suited?- Yes.
Gender stereotypes are incredibly harmful. There is actually a post about how these assumptions are harmful to men just as they are harmful to women. There are women who don’t have a maternal bone in their body just as there are very paternal and nurturing men who would probably make better parents. Biologically speaking, men are physically stronger than women but there are other factors involved there such as genetics and how people take care of themselves. Assumptions shouldn’t be made. Moreover, the chemicals in men and women can vary from person to person and therefore should not be something we base how our society works on.
And on catcalling: if it respectful, it is not catcalling. However, it’s important to keep in mind that women don’t exist for men to compliment them. But, if it is a compliment, women wouldn’t be offended. That’s a fact. If a woman has a problem with the way a man speaks to her, she is totally valid in that as this is entirely subjective. The reason so many women feel weird when they are approached now is because it can be uncomfortable and can be accompanied with violence and there is no way of knowing how a man is going to react. This is a serious issue that should not be brushed off. If a woman doesn’t want to be approached, that’s the end of it.
This kind of masculinity fills men with false entitlement. It is scary and dangerous which is why people are working to do away with the gender binary. I’m providing various articles to back up what I’m saying and I hope you consider looking into them.
The difference between sex and gender: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php
More about sex and gender: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf
Articles on the dangers of hyper-masculinity:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/25/dangerous-masculinty-everyone-risk
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/boy-behavior-bad-behavior-dangers-romanticizing-masculinity-kerj/
http://www.womensagenda.com.au/talking-about/opinions/elliot-rodger-shooting-sprees-and-the-dangers-of-masculinity/201405274080#.VRXnbvnF-So
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-t-crawford/a-culture-of-hypermasculi_b_5147191.html
The problems with the gender binary in society:
http://lipmag.com/feminism-2/dangers-of-the-malefemale-gender-binary/
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/08/07/3468380/gender-roles-health-risks/
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/5858
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Let me just pick out all things you have wrong here. 1 I use nature as an example because humans are animals and driven by the same urges as animals such as the need to reproduce, and the need to eat. Animals have hierarchies to determine who goes first in both aspects and humans are no different. We are also not angler fish. 2 sorry for calling women the gentler sex, i guess i should have went with the term the physically less stronger sex. 3 men who are effeminate are men only in the fact that they also have penises not much else. 4 there are one million things you can tell by a persons genitals this goes back to the aspect of anatomy i have no idea how this is so hard to wrap your head around. 5 gay men and women do NOT like big tits as much as i do. This one just makes me laugh. 6 women give birth to the child they feed it with their breast milk something that men cannot do. They are biologically built to take care of children.7 Men are stronger than women a huge percent of the time. Why do you think we have to segregate sports? Because women stand no chance in almost all of the ones that require strength, or speed, or endurance. Men should be the defender of the family because unless there are extreme circumstances he is stronger and more adept at fighting off an attack.
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Honestly, pretty much everything you said here is completely wrong. Humans actually don’t have an animalistic desire to reproduce. People reproduce because they want to, or because it was an accident. There are plenty of people who have no desire to reproduce, and there are plenty of people who have no desire for sex at all, they are called asexuals. Men being biologically stronger than women has nothing to do with anything. You and many other people are just using it as an excuse to keep the gender binary alive.
Obviously, you did not look at the links I provided outlining the difference between sex and gender because there is scientific evidence that proves sex and gender are not the same thing. Meaning, there can be men without penises just as there can be women without vaginas. Also, saying that effeminate men are only men because they only have penises is extremely homophobic, incorrect, and not your place to say especially as that opinion is not backed by any fact.
I did not say gay men like large breasts. I said gender-neutral people, meaning people who do not identify with being a man or a woman. And YES, there are women and gender-neutral people who like big tits as much as any man. Why would this fact make you laugh when it is entirely true? I will say it again, you liking big tits has nothing to do with you being a man and everything to do with your sexuality.
The thing is, you can not base your argument in biology and physicality because it is not sound enough to create gender roles around. Yes, women can feed babies with breast milk but honestly, nowadays there are babies raised on formula and not breast milk with no problem. A women’s ability to create breast milk does not make her a parent. Also, did you know that men can actually lactate? Both men and women can lactate at will with enough stimulation to the nipples. Women just have the hormones to do it naturally when they give birth.
Everything you’re saying is sexist, homophobic, and transphobic and can not and should not be deemed as truth because, not only is it not based in fact, but it creates all of the societal problems we have now. There is nothing good about the gender binary. The only reason you think this is fact is because our society is based around this nonsense in order to raise up men and belittle women. You kept talking about being here for women but women can not be considered equals in a society like this. If they could, it would have happened already. Women and LGBT+ people can not live in a society like this that has such aggressive, hateful hyper-masculinity. There is no way for these groups to live their day to day lives without feeling belittled or threatened with violence if this continues.
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first of all let me retort with the fact i have spent much much more money chasing large breasts than any straight female or gay male. second of all im not belittling women im all for gay rights. im just saying men and women are different. we should play up eachothers strengths and quit pretending that there arent any differences between the two. I dont see anything wrong with society today besides maybe a couple of assholes making the rest of us look bad. Sometimes all of this feminism stuff makes me think some of these girls just have a case of penis envy. And when i say sexual conquest i dont know where you get the idea that im raping these girls. What the hell? its just pretty cool to me to be able to say ive banged a bunch of hot chicks. quit slut shaming me! And please, none of us here are psychologist or anthropologist so spare me the 20 pages of material that you found on google that you expect me to read.
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The only reason I wrote over a thousand words with 9 sources attached was to prove the seriousness of what we’re talking about here that you are undermining. These are objective facts. My stance is the one that advocates for the well-being of all people, not a selective few. Frankly, I would be more willing to consider your opinion if it were actually based in fact and if it were the option the benefits the most amount of marginalized people, but on both accounts it is not. I gave multiple reading options, knowing that given the large amount you weren’t to bother with all of them, because these are the facts. I was just giving you the information so that you could educate yourself on these issues.
The fact that you have spent money chasing women does not change the fact that women and gender neutral people can like large breasts, too. AGAIN, I said GENDER-NEUTRAL people, not gay males. Gender-neutral people are those who do not identify as a woman or a man. These people do exist. As one’s gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with their sexuality, I want to let you know AGAIN that you investing in your love of large breasts has nothing to do with the fact that you are a man and everything to do with the fact that you are straight and therefore sexually attracted to women. Going off of your comment about being all for gay rights, you can’t be for gay rights if you feel the need to invalidate their identities. Gay men are men because they identify as men not just because they have a penis. Your genitalia determines your sex not your gender. Gender is performative and learned. I am very aware that there are biological differences between men and women. However, they are honestly so minute that determining stringent gender roles based on these differences does not make any sense and it’s sexist. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is sexist.
Please do not pull the “not all men” card. We are all aware that not all men are horrible people. But, because of the number of atrocities that happen towards women by men on a regular basis, this conversation has to happen in generalizations. Feminism has nothing to do with “penis envy”. Women have no interest in being men. Feminism is a sociopolitical movement that advocates for gender equality. Men are also included in this movement. In the effort the tear down the patriarchy, feminism deals with the ways the gender binary harms men too. For example, feminists are all for taking male rape seriously, letting men show their non-aggressive emotions freely, and many other issues that men can face under gender stereotypes. That said, men can be feminists. Clearly you are confused as to what feminism is and I advise you to look into it further.
What you seem to not understand is that the phrase “sexual conquest” is very violent. If you don’t think so, I think you should look up the definition of the word conquest. There is a history of rape culture in our society and violent words like these are part of it. “Sexual conquest” does not sound consensual. More often than not, the people who refer to sex as a conquest, or anything else like it, do not care about consent as much as they should. And, if they do, they still see women as sex toys, not people. By saying “sexual conquest”, you may not being implying rape, but you are implying some sort of sexual domination over women. Women are not sexual objects for men to conquest.
As a man, you are not slut shamed. Women are slut shamed. Men are expected to have a lot of sex all the time. People expect men to want sex all the time. People expect men to express their sexuality. However, if a woman does any of these things, it is a problem. THAT is slut shaming. Yes, some people may think differently of a man who has a lot of sex but it does not some close to the societal views of women having sex or expressing their sexuality in any way.
None of what I said are empty opinions. These are objective truths that have been fact-checked. There is evidence in the news almost every single day around the world of these things. There are science and sociology articles written all the time proving that there are serious issues with hyper-masculinity, patriarchal societies, and the gender binary. Yes, I did find those articles I provided on google, but please find me the same multitude of articles that back up your opinion.
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There is nothing wrong with men being men and women being women, and I guess everyone’s definition of what being a man or being a woman is, is different. When you project your own bias or definition of what that means to others, it can be a form of oppression. Why is it that they have to conform to your box of what a man or what a woman should be?
Whats wrong with being satisfied after beating down a rival and rubbing his face in the mud?
– In today’s society, violence is a bit out of date, don’t you think? If you can solve your problems with out violence, I think that is preferred. Unless you mean figuratively. Did you really win if you had to rub his face in the mud after already “winning”?
What’s wrong with sexual conquest?
– I guess it depends on how you see sex, maybe to you it is some form of validating your own self esteem and game. Are you hunting down these conquests like animals? I suppose this might be where the womanizer comes from, or rather “dehumanizer”.
They should be paid the same wage for doing the same amount of work of course but should they be treated the same in every aspect of day to day life?
No, there are fundamental differences between men and women both physically and mentally and many people now days are for some reason choosing to ignore that.
– There are physical differences, but how does that determine a woman’s pay if they are both doing a technical job? Here, again, is a subtle form of bias – women are different but should be paid different.
What is mentally different about women? Do you feel they are inferior?
Men are expected to make the first move on a woman if they want to find a mate and sometimes it can be seen as catcalling.
– If you were objectified as often as some women are, you’d feel annoyed, too.
Either way it should be done as respectfully as possible sure but I don’t see anything wrong with it if it is done respectfully.
– What is respectfully if it is unwanted altogether?
For thousands of years, men have been at the top of the food chain, and it is nice being privileged there. When we were all cave men, maybe this was needed to survive in a cave man society. In today’s society, when it’s not about how big your muscles are any more, you might be feeling a bit of an existential threat to your manliness.
It’s fine being an animal, if you were living in the stone age. But realize, this mindset is outdated and honestly, disgusting, in a civilized society.
As in nature, adapt and change or become extinct.
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What I love most about this post is the author’s assertion that he is super macho, super masculine, and basically the very essence of a “manly man.” I love this assertion, because I sit in the same classroom as the rest of us and I can assure you that we are all a bunch of liberal arts, hipster, basics. We liked our Starbucks before it was cool and we liked it pumpkin flavored and we never sipped our frappes without disdainfully contemplating the life and times of the fair trade cocoa bean. Let’s not pretend that we are any different.
In fact, we should stop “pretending” on a lot of fronts. Let’s stop pretending that you actually feel affronted by any of the past blog comments. Let’s stop pretending that this post is anything more than a tool to stir the pot with. Let’s stop pretending that there is an “assault on masculinity.”
There are some things I agreed with in this post. For instance, I’m all about competition. I like winning. I like succeeding. I like measuring myself against others, and I especially like when those measurements favor me. However, I am a female, and to assert that competition is a purely (or even predominately) masculine trait is a fallacy. Plenty of Olympic medals go to women.
I’m also all for flirting. My friends know that I would flirt with a brick if the opportunity arose, and there is no shame in that. I think that however many women you choose to sleep with is between yourself and them. However, I agree with TinyKing, they are not your “conquest.” They are people. A conquest is gained by subjugation, invasion, and force. That’s not a sexual relationship. That’s rape. There’s also your assertion that flirting can be mistaken for catcalling. That’s very much not true.
The definition of a catcall is to, “make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by.” That’s not flirting. That’s harassment. If your attempts at complimenting or flirting with another woman are being mistaken for catcalling, then I’m afraid what’s really happening is that you are mistaking your catcalling for compliments. I agree with Kristen here, it’s the victim of harassment who has the authority to label their treatment.
Finally, stop linking humans to animals. We’ve evolved past that. You may think that it’s nature to assert dominance, have multiple partners, and beat your chest because that’s what goes on the animal kingdom, but let me remind you that the male giraffe obtains a mouthful of female urine to determine if she is ready to mate. So, maybe stop taking cues from the animal kingdom. Just because they do it, doesn’t mean we should.
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Whoa whoa whoa first of all nobody would ever confuse me for some liberal arts hipster. Im in this class because i needed to work on my writing but i ended up getting into arguments with a bunch of extremely far left liberals which make me want to reconsider my stance as a democrat. ive argued all of these points before with direct observations about how humans are wired and why we act the way we do. i dont care to argue this point any more. And lets not talk about people personally on here i would hate for it to get ugly.
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